Here's a Super Turbo trick that Nekohashi put on his blog a few years ago. The original post is here. Info about safe jump option selects has been widely disseminated for SF4; I thought it'd be nice to post some nitty gritty for SF2.
"Built-in Dragon Punch" and "option select Dragon Punch" are more or less interchangeable. The idea is that the DP motion is "built-in" to the previous attack.
"Hit stop" is the brief (about a quarter of a second) freeze for both characters when an attack hits or gets blocked.
Translation note: I paraphrased some of this but kept Nekohashi's voice; first person comments below are his.
---
For this trick you do a safe jump on your opponent and then if they do a wake-up attack you'll beat it with a DP. If they don't do the wake-up, however, after the jump attack is blocked there's no DP. Safe jumping is well known amongst SF2 players, but with this built-in DP you can further enhance the technique. The theory is that if you blocked [after safe jumping] you could have DP'ed.
Detailed flowchart:
1. Input the safe jump attack
2. Reach the moment for the safe jump to hit or get blocked
3. Complete the built-in Dragon Punch command
4. Safe jump kick whiffs as opponent does wake-up reversal
5. Since the safe jump kick didn't make contact, the whole sequence is shortened by the hit stop duration so you get a Dragon Punch as you land
We want to put this to use against wake-up attacks that can't be punished or to crush gambling wake-ups + inflict damage (+ loop.) Ultimately the goal is to discourage any wake up reversals and leave them with no choice but to block the jump kick.
You have to input the command for the Dragon Punch extremely quickly in conjunction with the safe jump kick. For a safe jump roundhouse with a built-in jab dragon punch the actual button presses should be happen with a quick "TATAN." They should be about one to six frames apart — do it as fast as you can. If you think about the timing for canceling a jumping punch into an air HK with Ken, this is similar to that. In the event that your opponent blocks your safe jump kick you must finish the Dragon Punch command before your feet touch the ground.
Some notes about Ryu's built-in DP vs. various attacks.
Green: option select OK. Red: option select NOT OK.
Vs. Ryu: Hurricane Kick, Dragon Punch (trades), Super Fireball (delayed super freeze makes this ok)
Vs. E.Honda: Headbutt, Sumo Drop, Super Headbutt (super freeze means timing is difficult)
Vs. Chun-Li: Super (no safe jump vs. Tenshokyaku [RH version])
Vs. Guile: Flash Kick (DP generally loses to Super Flash Kick)
Vs. T.Hawk: Tomahawk Buster (usually loses so there's no point)
Vs. Fei-Long: Flame Kick, Chicken Kick, Super
Vs. Cammy: Cannon Spike, Spin Knuckle, Super
Vs. DeeJay: Machine Gun, Short Jackknife (don't let him get a read on you)
Vs. Boxer: Super (DP loses to Buffalo Headbutt but it can take out Crazy Buffalo)
Vs. Claw: Scarlet Terror
Vs. Sagat: Tiger Uppercut (don't safe jump vs. Sagat LOL)
Special case:
Vs. Blanka: if you jump in with a punch at a range that would stop Vertical Balls you can add a built-in fireball or super fireball to defeat wake-up Back Hop attempts.
Once you get the hang of this technique it's just a matter of coming up with your own preferred setups. Against Honda I find that doing it with jump kick -> low roundhouse -> fierce fireball feels nice. If the built-in DP hits that's fine, if the jump-in -> low roundhouse hits that's fine and if the whole thing is blocked you press the advantage. Consider Aniken's setup:
jump short (built-in DP) -> crouching medium punch -> low roundhouse (-> fireball)
If this hits, his opponent is knocked down and near dizzy. It's also easy to hit confirm, and Ken can lock down with the fireball or stop at the low strong and look for a knee bash mixup. That makes it an extremely well rounded sequence.
This type of option select can be done with any attack including a normal move. For example, you can use a crouching uppercut to stop Ryu's Hurricane Kick. Time it properly [on the slow side] and then if Ryu blocks your jump-in you get nothing, if he does a wake-up HK you'll beat it with the built-in punch and if he does a wake-up DP you'll land and block it. When I saw Shiki playing Boxer at Star Cup he was doing this well.
[NH2 says: you can mess with this on an emulator. Get a MAME cheat file and turn on the easy special move cheat for 2P's (would-be) wake-up special move. Then assign 1P's jump kick and 2P's special move all to the same button. Now if you do a deep jump kick with a built-in Dragon Punch you can see how the trick works. The timing isn't exactly the same — this will only work against slower wake-up attacks.]
Friday, January 15, 2010
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
This technique reminds me of the auto mix up. An option select from a tick that results in a normal throw or a dragon punch via an special empty cancel. The way the auto mix up works is that you tick your opponent with a normal, then walk forward and input QCF and then a button for throw, followed immediately by a button for a dragon punch.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCEH0QSI_vI
Because your opponent is in block stun longer than you, you need to delay your throw attempt, a delay which is conveniently built into the walking forward. The walking forward also doubles as the forward command for the dragon punch. So if you tick your opponent, walk forward, and input the commands for the auto mix up, and your opponent blocks, then you'll get a perfect tick throw with a normal throw. The dragon punch won't come out.
However if your opponent goes from block stun, to immediately doing a special reversal attack, then your tick throw will lose...unless you use the auto mix up. The auto mix up has a normal throw and special attack built into it. So if your opponent goes from hit stun, to doing an invincible reversal, then your throw attempt will come out as a normal attack and eventually lose to the reversal special from your opponent.
However, the auto mix up's built in dragon punch motion cancels the whiffed normal early in the move, into a dragon punch. Meaning your opponent's invulnerable frames from his special overlap your normal attack. But by the time his active hit frame boxes are out, you are entering the invincible start up phase of your dragon punch. Meaning your late dragon punch will beat his special (providing it has higher hit box priority which it usually will because of the delay).
Here's a video of Aniken doing the auto mix up. He knocks his opponent down, does a cross up forward as a tick, and inputs the auto mix up. His opponent does a reversal jab DP, you see his normal get canceled quickly, and the he does a DP as well and both DPs end up trading.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGtTuyA886k&#t=20s
The idea with the auto mix up is that a ground normal that overlaps with a normal throw can be special canceled into a dragon punch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHhNLdj7mD0&#t=1m30s
Here it is again, first time the DP comes out (though the tick didn't have perfect timing), second time the opponent doesn't reverse and gets knee bashed.
I'm having a hard time finding perfect examples of the safe jump dragon punch overlap option select technique but here's (an old) one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEhEfuE5W6s&#t=50s
ShootingD knocks his opponent down, jumps at them (not exactly safe timing, a frame or two late), the opponent does an attempted reversal dragon punch (one or two frames late), ShootingD lands and immediately does a dragon punch, the DPs trade and he wins.
Here's one for T.Hawk. You see Toutanki establish the corner set up for the safe jump stormhammer loop. His first safe jump tick into command throw goes well. He safe jumps again, and lands as his opponent does a reversal hurricane, he immediately does a thunderstrike (Hawk's DP) to beat the hurricane kick from Ryu. Built in dragon punch? This safe jump dragon punch option select is not something I can say I'm entirely familiar with so I'm having a hard time spotting it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ok_KzYTwqBk&#t=3m35s
K has the corner set up, and gets the first safe jump jab low jab to command throw sequence off perfectly. Now his opponent needs a way out, he tries to reversal hurricane on wakeup three times in a row to escape this okizeme nightmare, but each hurricane is met with Hawk's dragon punch immediately. Another example of this option select? Again I'm not fully wrapping my mind around the concept yet.
- VF4
By the way Nohoho you should really make a thread about some of your posts like this on SRK.
Hi VF4
ReplyDeleteKen can't auto mix-up like other characters. There are special move commands that overlap with all of his would-be throws.
His only auto mix-up is with shoryureppa
qcf qcf tiny hesitation medium kick~punch
The command buffer for super lasts longer than the one for crazy kicks.
The Ken players in those videos (not Aniken, btw) were just guessing.
T.Hawk
Yeah you see the trick in this post most often with hawk players.
safe jump jab ->
(built-in dp) ->
crouching jab ->
(hit confirm combo) ->
negative edge typhoon ->
(another dp)
For something like that even Honda can't escape. Without the option select DP at the beginning (and end) he might have to block a special move and not be able to loop.
Futachan uses safe jump option select DPs but I can't remember if/where any wound up on youtube.
Thanks for this post, NH2! I was always curious whenever K did that jumping short into DP. Now I see that it's just an application of the "built-in DP" technique that further enhances safe jumps.
ReplyDeleteI must say, I dislike the concept of option selects in general, as they seem to reward *too* much momentum for any given small mistake by the opponent.
Thanks again for this post, it's always great to learn something new when we thought we already knew (almost) everything about this game.
What's the actual timing of all the inputs? Do I have to input dp as the safe jump kick is about to connect, when it to connects, or do I have to input it as I'm pressing the kick button in one continuous motion? So what it be like j. kick... (wait) dp motion, or is it j.kick~dp?
ReplyDeleteWhat about built-in normal moves like boxer's cr.fp mentioned in the article? Do I drum cr.fp off of the wake-up hk or do I wait to see what happens before inputting the command? In that video the cr.fp comes out and defeats ryu's attempted hk reversal, but WHEN exactly did he input cr.fp is the crux of my question(s).
Also, is the the input timing of built in moves the same between specials and normals? Any info would be great, thanks.
By the way,
ReplyDeleteThis video has a nice display of
negative edge typhoon ->
(another dp)
There's no guessing going on there on Suzuki's end.
1021 -
I must say, I dislike the concept of option selects in general, as they seem to reward *too* much momentum for any given small mistake by the opponent.
Option select is such a broad term it can refer to almost anything. Like Chun-Li tries to throw but her opponent was too far she gets a standing strong.
We really could use a new term for the subset of option selects where opponent uses invincibility to dodge Move A you automatically hit them with Move B.
But yeah it is kind of frustrating to feel like you're playing rock paper scissors and your opponent is using two hands heh.
1034 -
What's the actual timing of all the inputs?
Nekohashi doesn't say, but I guess I can recommend doing the Dragon Punch first like:
towards, down, down-towards roundhouse~jab
That'll do it.
He mentions thinking of the timing for canceling Ken's jumping punch into an Air Hurricane Kick. In fact something Damdai explained to me:
In a Ken vs. Claw fight, Ken does safe jump jab cancel into air Hurricane Kick. If Claw tries to run away with a Back Flip, Ken will often get a ground Hurricane Kick that chases after him. It's a nice, totally automatic occurrence of the trick in this post.
Do I drum cr.fp off of the wake-up hk or do I wait to see what happens before inputting the command? In that video the cr.fp comes out and defeats ryu's attempted hk reversal, but WHEN exactly did he input cr.fp is the crux of my question(s).
You don't wait to see what happens. In the event that your opponent blocks (or gets hit by) your jump attack there's a pause from Hit Stop. The whole game freezes for a tiny moment. In this trick you're doing the second command while that Hit Stop
a) IS IN EFFECT or
b) WOULD-BE IN EFFECT
depending on the whole "option selection" of course.
So in that Shiki video there are jump-ins at 2:32 and 2:35. Presumably he pressed fierce both times. In the first one his jump attack missed, low fierce defeats the HK. In the second one jump attack makes contact, there's no fierce because he pressed it during hit stop. Boxer can then do whatever.
Here's one from SF4 that I happened to be watching a minute ago.
At 2:46 Tokido @ Akuma does a jump-in and Hanamaruki tries to dodge with backdash. Tokido put a built-in low roundhouse there to catch him. If Sagat had blocked the jump kick that same roundhouse button press would have occurred while Akuma was still in the air.
Check out UltraDavid's SF4 Zangief video for a really detailed breakdown. It's a lot of SF4 specific tricks but most of the concepts apply to ST, too.
Also, is the the input timing of built in moves the same between specials and normals?
Same. Hit stop is very short; the built-in attack has to be done extremely quickly.
By the way,
ReplyDeleteThis video has a nice display of
negative edge typhoon ->
(another dp)
There's no guessing going on there on Suzuki's end.
Yea, that video is a great example, but it also prompts another question. Does the built-in dp only activate on reversal attempts?
Here me out on this one. Suzuki was able to get in a low jab after the safe jump attack before the dp was activated. Whereas in the other vids, the built-in move kicked in immediately after the safe jump-in without a subsequent attack.
When he was able to get a negative edge typhoon the first two times, did BUY try to reversal at any point between the safe jump-in and low jab? If he did, why didn't the built-in dp activate? Was it because BUY didn't time it right and, as a result, the reversal never came out?
So as Hawk, if you do towards, down, down-towards d+mp~lp and are able to sneak in a low jab after that, will the dp continue to be "built in" throughout the duration of the block string, or is the built-in dp only viable off of a safe jump-in and rendered null if any attacks follow it?
I know it's a little confusing, but I hope you understand what I'm trying to ask/identify.
Does the built-in dp only activate on reversal attempts?
ReplyDeleteIt activates only when the jump-in misses.
When he was able to get a negative edge typhoon the first two times, did BUY try to reversal at any point between the safe jump-in and low jab?
CE Dictator doesn't have an invincible reversal. Scissor kick happens to be airborne at start. So BUY wouldn't try a reversal there and Suzuki wouldn't omit the low jab and/or let his opponent out of block stun because he'd still be in Dictator's throw range.
If it were like Hawk vs. Honda and a Hawk player did safe jump jab (blocked) and then simply hesitated a moment that'd be a huge gaffe. His built-in DP would be gone (see below) and Honda gets a Headbutt or Oicho chance.
So as Hawk, if you do towards, down, down-towards d+mp~lp and are able to sneak in a low jab after that, will the dp continue to be "built in" throughout the duration of the block string, or is the built-in dp only viable off of a safe jump-in and rendered null if any attacks follow it?
No the whole thing is completely over if they block the jump in. Look at the second jump-in in that Shiki video at 2:35. Opponent blocks, you finish inputting the trick, nothing happens because you're still in the air. Using UltraDavid's terminology the dominant option got selected and the game continues normally.
To get technical about it if they block the safe jump the command buffer for the Dragon Punch will expire before you touch the ground because of hit stop.
Here's another SF4 video. If Rufus blocks, then nothing happens. If Rufus dodges the jump-in (with his EX move) then Ryu gets a DP.
I think I might've misinterpreted what you were talking about in this video, which in turn prompted a freaking dissertation, lol.
ReplyDeleteWhen you said "There's no guessing going on there on Suzuki's end." you were talking about negative edge typhoon and not the last three reversal dp's that ended the round, right?
If it was the dp's you were referring to, did you then mean that he buffered dp out of the low jab every time in addition to spinning the stick?
Does the built-in dp only activate on reversal attempts?
It activates only when the jump-in misses.
By miss do you mean that the jump-in was intentionally missed to set up the built-in attack, or did it miss by virtue of a reversal? Because if there was no reversal, the safe jump would've connected even if there was no command buffer, yeah?
Isn't a safe jump's connection(with a command buffer or otherwise), whether it hits or gets blocked contingent on the action of your opponent on wake-up? If he chooses to block a safe jump-in and you time it perfectly, he'll block, right? My point being that it can't miss if you time it just right, it can only "miss" if you either mistime it, or if there's a reversal attempt on wake-up, no?
If it was the dp's you were referring to, did you then mean that he buffered dp out of the low jab every time in addition to spinning the stick?
ReplyDeleteBy spinning the stick, I meant provided that the built-in dp doesn't activate so that negative edge typhoon would come out instead. Of course this part of my post is completely moot if this wasn't what you were referring to.
Another reason why I think this isn't what you were talking about is because if you try to buffer dp off of a low jab, that registers as a cancel and would come out regardless of any action on the part of the opponent, wouldn't it?
I should have made it clear above that I was going off topic a bit with that Suzuki video. The point I was trying to make is that if Hawk adds enough bells and whistles to his loop even Honda can't escape. The built-in DP and "another DP" at the end happen to be two separate tricks towards that end.
ReplyDeleteWhen you said "There's no guessing going on there on Suzuki's end." you were talking about negative edge typhoon and not the last three reversal dp's that ended the round, right?
I was talking about both. It's all one long command. Something like this:
low jab (hold), b, ub, u, uf, f, df, d, db (release), f, d, df, press jab again
But again, this is getting into something different than the original post.
Here's something GreenTea said he was experimenting with that happened to be in this old video:
ReplyDeleteAniken team vs. Tasaka team
At 0:43 Gian and Otochun say the Cannon Spike after the missed cross up was an option select. I guess it's just jump short with a DP motion a la that Daigo SF4 variation.
Will the built-in dragon punch still come out if you don't time the safe jump correctly?
ReplyDeleteYes you can still do the trick if the jump is a little late. Thing is, a strong opponent will have an eye for that and they'll just use their regular anti-air to beat your not-safe jump in.
ReplyDeleteHi Nohoho,
ReplyDeleteyou said in a previous comment the folowing thing :
Ken can't auto mix-up like other characters. There are special move commands that overlap with all of his would-be throws.
His only auto mix-up is with shoryureppa
qcf qcf tiny hesitation medium kick~punch
The command buffer for super lasts longer than the one for crazy kicks.
I was really excited when i read that, because i'm a ken player and i was convinced that i knew all about this character.
Then i thought about it, and realised that you were certainly mistaken ; in fact, st medium kick is not cancelable.
In the Ryu's auto-mixup, it works because st close mp is cancelable.
tell me if i'm wrong.
JUL
Any move in ST can be cancelled it's just that some can't be cancelled after the hitting frames start. You have to cancel before the seventh frame (give or take depending on character.)
ReplyDeleteI'm really not too sure about N.Ken auto mix-up into super what I wrote earlier was mostly academic. There's no way it would be worth the trouble to do that fancy command (with the risk of a funky kick coming out.) When I picture it in my head I don't think his super would even hit properly.