The SSF2T SBO DVD goes on sale at the end of the month. Also I added Rambo @ Dhalsim to the SDT v2. Links for both of those on the left.
| RY | KE | EH | CH | BL | ZA | GU | DH | TH | CA | FE | DJ | BX | CL | SG | DI | +/- | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Ryu (Gotoh) | - | 6.5 | 8 | 6 | 7.5 | 4.5 | 6.5 | 3 | 6 | 7.5 | 6.5 | 7 | 4 | 4 | 6.5 | 6.5 | +15 |
| Ken (Aniken) | 3.5 | - | 7 | 3.5 | 5 | 4 | 3.5 | 2.5 | 5.5 | 5 | 4.5 | 5 | 3.5 | 4 | 5 | 6 | -7.5 |
| E.Honda (Kusumondo) | 2 | 3 | - | 2.5 | 7.5 | 8.5 | 2 | 3.5 | 6.5 | 8 | 7 | 1.5 | 3.5 | 4 | 3.5 | 6.5 | -5.5 |
| Chun-Li (Nuki) | 4 | 6.5 | 7.5 | - | 7 | 7.5 | 6 | 5 | 5.5 | 6 | 4 | 6.5 | 5.5 | 4 | 6.5 | 7 | +13.5 |
| Blanka (Komoda) | 2.5 | 5 | 2.5 | 3 | - | 6 | 4 | 2 | 7 | 4 | 3.5 | 2.5 | 2.5 | 3.5 | 2 | 6.5 | -18.5 |
| Zangief (Gunze) | 5.5 | 6 | 1.5 | 2.5 | 4 | - | 2 | 2.5 | 5.5 | 3.5 | 3 | 5.5 | 4.5 | 3.5 | 4 | 5.5 | -16 |
| Guile (Muteki) | 3.5 | 6.5 | 8 | 4 | 6 | 8 | - | 1.5 | 6.5 | 8 | 7.5 | 5.5 | 4 | 3 | 6.5 | 5.5 | +9 |
| Dhalsim (Gian) | 7 | 7.5 | 6.5 | 5 | 8 | 7.5 | 8.5 | - | 6.5 | 6.5 | 6.5 | 8 | 5.5 | 3.5 | 9 | 6.5 | +27 |
| T.Hawk (K) | 4 | 4.5 | 3.5 | 4.5 | 3 | 4.5 | 3.5 | 3.5 | - | 1.5 | 3 | 3 | 4.5 | 3 | 3.5 | 3 | -22.5 |
| Cammy (Nakamura) | 2.5 | 5 | 2 | 4 | 6 | 6.5 | 2 | 3.5 | 8.5 | - | 3 | 2 | 2.5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | -18.5 |
| Fei-Long (Yuubou) | 3.5 | 5.5 | 3 | 6 | 6.5 | 7 | 2.5 | 3.5 | 7 | 7 | - | 2.5 | 3 | 3.5 | 3.5 | 3.5 | -7.5 |
| DeeJay (yaya) | 3 | 5 | 8.5 | 3.5 | 7.5 | 4.5 | 4.5 | 2 | 7 | 8 | 7.5 | - | 3 | 4 | 5.5 | 6.5 | +5 |
| Boxer (Tsuji) | 6 | 6.5 | 6.5 | 4.5 | 7.5 | 5.5 | 6 | 4.5 | 5.5 | 7.5 | 7 | 7 | - | 5.5 | 8 | 6.5 | +19 |
| Claw (ARG) | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6.5 | 6.5 | 7 | 6.5 | 7 | 6 | 6.5 | 6 | 4.5 | - | 7.5 | 5 | +18 |
| Sagat (yaya) | 3.5 | 5 | 6.5 | 3.5 | 8 | 6 | 3.5 | 1 | 6.5 | 7 | 6.5 | 4.5 | 2 | 2.5 | - | 3.5 | -5.5 |
| Dictator (Taira) | 3.5 | 4 | 3.5 | 3 | 3.5 | 4.5 | 4.5 | 3.5 | 7 | 8 | 6.5 | 3.5 | 3.5 | 5 | 6.5 | - | -5 |
Thanks Nohoho! I'd like to imagine I had some small contribution to Muteki's 1.5 Guile v. Dhalsim (I think 1 is generous), but even Gian's corresponding number agrees with Muteki. Claw (and old sagat) are not really used much in Japan, I wonder if that skews things, ie Claw getting lower ranked than Dhalsim and even Boxer here.... Also, how are you supposed to give the numbers again, is it based on what typically happens at the highest levels, or more theoretical? eg Dhalsim has tons of options and wins against characters like Zangief and Hawk, but once they get in with the spd pattern on him, it's a big swing in the round and suddenly you can throw all that theory out the window praying for a throw or reversal teleport. If Dhalsim ever has to catch up, besides his super it has to be through good reads on countering the opponent's next move.
ReplyDeleteHi David!
ReplyDeleteThat's neat that you got to duke it out with Muteki.
but even Gian's corresponding number agrees with Muteki.
This chart was a little different than the one I put together. Here the players submitted their own numbers but then Gian fiddled with them to get the rows and columns to match up.
Elsewhere in the magazine Gian writes about how looking at things through the lens of sbo 08 claw proved to be the top of the top. Lack of weaknesses is a key thing for him. Also what puts chun over ryu regardless of what the numbers say.
Also, how are you supposed to give the numbers again, is it based on what typically happens at the highest levels, or more theoretical?
It's not clear. My guess is the former. If the two are really at odds with each other (like, perhaps gief-sim) doesn't that mean that the theory is wrong? Kind of weird that we (= fighting game players from all over) like to talk about tiers so much but never really sorted out what the terms are.
I can't believe they didn't factor in Old Sagat at all.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I see the Hawk/Chun fight as at least 5/5 or maybe 6/4 Hawk. At least for O. Hawk, his d+fp splash owns up Chun for free and jump jab seems to take care of any air to air encounters when getting close. I know New Hawk's d+fp splash has a different hitbox in terms of crossup ability, but I'm not sure if its also less effective against Chun.
Some shocking stuff in there, particularly in the Guile matchups. Guile owned by Ryu 6.5?? Guile beats Blanka?
ReplyDeleteCraziness.
Thanks Nohoho! Good stuff!
ReplyDeleteRyu1999 - The article had a separate blurb for O.Ken, O.Honda, O.Hawk and O.Sagat. O.Honda's no-recovery HHS highlighted — Shogatsu is really sneaky with the quick stop hand action.
ReplyDeleteBrian - Mannn I mean people generally agree that those two matches are pretty close. I thought the Bison-Cammy mark was kind of strange. Pretty sure Taira and Naka go back and forth.
Fatboy - Cute Dhalsim wallpapers at the sf4 site
BTW Mikado has started streaming tourneys live. Vampire Hunter tomorrow evening (Tokyo.) Hopefully they'll do ST next sunday. link
claw vs. blanka finally settled by the opinions of 2 top players. maybe now sirlin will change his opinion. also, interesting that he considers cammy a mismatch for dhalsim. that was the main reason j.mp was changed for ST HD.
ReplyDeleteanyway, very nice list, some surprising numbers, but most of them make perfect sense.
I asked AFO about guile vs blanka, and he said that if guile defends perfectly, the match is advantageous for him. When I asked about the slide he insisted on the fact that you can't punish sonic booms on reaction with it and that you have to guess.
ReplyDeleteFrom what I understand it can be hard for blanka to find openings against a turtling guile, which gives him a slight advantage.
I always though that Honda had the advantage over Claw, yet here it says its the opposite.
ReplyDeletewhat am I missing in this fight?
Can anyone enter mikado tournaments? I will be in Japan this coming sunday and would love to play.
ReplyDeleteHi man, i will be at the mikado tournament this sunday 23th november at 19.00 (entry finish at 18.45) see you there. Can you give me some of your contact?
ReplyDeleteOn shoryuken forum i am "denki"
Denki, I sent you a pm on srk.
ReplyDeleteHey, nohoho, can you post some of the O.character information? I use O.Honda, and it's hard to come by information. If you want, you can PM me on SRK instead. I would really, REALLY appreciate it.
ReplyDeleteX-static
D&D - If they stream the Mikado action I'll be rooting for you guys!
ReplyDeleteX-Static - It just lists things that make O Honda different. Stuff you already know. Gian gets four pages he does the best he can.
Oh, okay. Thanks.
ReplyDeleteX-Static
can anyone elaborate on zangief over ryu? thanks in advance
ReplyDeleteThe most important thing is to get Zangief with a walk-in throw at the beginning of each round. Show him who's boss.
ReplyDeleteBTW Mikado is indeed streaming Sunday's ST tourney. Link in my comment above. 7pm tokyo.
This is so sexy. Pretty damn spot on.
ReplyDeleteAlthough, I do have one gripe. Dictator's MU's against the most popular characters (read: top and high tier) are actually better than listed. If they weren't, I doubt we'd see so many tourneys where a Dic makes top 3. By the listed MUs, Dic is middle tier overall, and if we were to weight his placing based on who you'll likely run into during a tournament, he'd be low tier.
There's no way in hell the, arguably, 3rd most popular character in ST is low tier.
BTW, I'm talking a 5 tier top->bottom system, not the 4 tier top->low system the JP tiers usually use. I don't know why JP players have a problem with saying a character is bottom tier. If there's a top there's a bottom lol
:D
You don't even need to disagree with the numbers above to argue that Bison is strong beyond his +/- value.
ReplyDeleteCheck this out: say we added a new character to ST who had '4.5's all the way across. Their -8 score would put them 3rd tier, when in fact they'd be a terrific choice for tourneys on both sides of the Pacific (fixed char or blind pick.)
Here are the characters listed in order of what their worst matchup is on the chart above.
4.5: Claw, Boxer
4: Chun
3.5: Sim
3: Dic, Ryu
2.5: Ken, Fei
2: DJ, Blanka, Cammy
1.5: Honda, Gief, Guile, Hawk
1: Sagat
Guile joins Bison and Ryu if bribes the bracket maker to avoid Dhalsims. Similar situation for Sagat. Otherwise that looks like a good tier list to me.
Check out Raisin's comment on the Super Diagram Turbo post for a related meta look at things.
Great, thanks for the chart. Really interesting match up numbers. =)
ReplyDeleteLove this chart, cheking it out everyday. I would really like to see the numbers where the players disagreed tho, that would make my whole year.
ReplyDeleteThanks dude